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Oil Flasks + Jackyl

Discussion in 'Mage' started by Thuvian, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. Thuvian Member

    that reportedly works in DFO and DnF. I haven't tested it myself, but others have. The technique is to stack Flasks of Oils on stationary monsters and then ignite them all at once using Jackyl. This results in a tremendous amount of damage. In the video, this technique is used to insta-kill Skasa.

    About the Video
    • The video comes from Korea's DnF.
    • The dungeon is Skasa's Lair a 55-58 area.
    • The dungeon was ran on Expert's Road.
    • The Witch is level 60, a little overleveled for the area.
    • I can't tell what skill levels she was, but assuming maximum is a safe bet.
    • That places Jackyl at level 18 with a 6869 Fixed Damage attack when Jackyl Explodes.
    • Shururu is level 26, which makes it level 6.
    • Skassa has a hit box on hits foot and head, which explains why there are two visible 20k Jackyl explosion marks.
    • Jackyl was a normal success, not a sleeper or failure.


    About Oil Flasks
    • Oil Flasks when throw hit the ground and rupture covering a small area with oil.
    • This oil lasts for ~12 seconds.
    • During this 12 second period of time, the oil can be set on fire with any fire-based attack including weapons, fire skills, and buffs that add fire attributes to weapons.
    • The effective stacking limit for Oil Flasks is 6 with a single character. The cool down for thrown items is 2 seconds, hence 12/2 = 6.
    • When a Oil puddle is set on fire, there is an initial explosion that does a small amount of damage. Afterward 1-3 small flames are created per Oil Flask.
    • The point of impact of triggering fire attack on the Oil puddle is very likely to generate one of these small flames.
    • These flames cause a series of attacks, it seems to be between 1-5. It is probably just like the fire attacks caused by exploding plants in the Dendroid Jungle, Silver Night, etc..
    • These small flame attacks do a tremendous amount of damage, which is problematic to estimate. When using players to estimate the damage, they die too quickly. Monsters are trickier because they move too much.
    • I cannot confirm if the damage is magical, physical, or other.
    • I cannot confirm if the damage can be reduced by Defenses, Stats, or anything else.
    • A single Oil Flask can do at least 2-3k damage when properly setup.
    • Multiple Oil Flasks do stack (linearly). With 6 flasks, 3 flames each flask, 3*6*3000 = 54,000 damage.
    • If a Oil Flask is thrown onto a fire, it will explode creating the same type of fire attacks.
    • Previous tests by players described in the forums state the inconsistency of damage, reporting damage from 1 to death. To achieve large amounts of damage, the target must be in one or more of the flames. It is easiest to achieve this by placing the point of impact of the initial fire attack on the target's location.

    What is all means.
    • The video may be misleading. The Jackyl itself does 40k damage, which may have been enough to kill Skasa by itself. The other 54k damage may have been completely unnecessary.
    • Regardless of what killed Skasa, the Oil Flask damage still seems to be valid.
    • As previously noted, it is difficult to use effectively because of the small hitbox of the flame attacks. It is also important to keep enemies on the flames for the duration of the skill.
    • Jackyl is a tremendously powerful attack. It does 4937 Fixed damage at maximum level and 7406 Fixed damage with a Sleeper success.
    • In later patches Jackyl can be manually detonated, however in current patches Jackyl must either expire (20 seconds) or die to cause the explosion.
    • Clear cube fragments are currently priced around 200 gold, Oil Flasks are 300 gold at Suisha, Lightning and Flame Grenades can also be purchased at Suisha for 700+ gold or they can be obtain in massive quantities from the pots in Dendroid jungle.
    • Oil Flasks can be used to kill Jackyl. This essentially turns Jackyl into a cube skill.
    • Witch Builds maximizing Jackly and Shururu and using Oil Flasks to detonate Jackyl may be really, really good.
    • Oil Flask damage on stationary and large enemies is very, very good.
    • I don't know what exactly occurs in the video.
    • Jackyl may or may not be necessary to achieve these levels of damage. If it is not, then this technique can be employed by any class.

    Summary
    • Shururu + Jackyl + Oil Flasks = Cube Skill Damage and costs
    • Oil Flasks are really good against large and stationary targets.
    • Oil Flasks must be aimed very accurately.
    • The video may be misleading as to what killed the dragon.
  2. Rdogg Code Kirin

    Skasa's Lair is a nightmare unless you happan to be lvl 70 so i wouldn't say 60 is overlvled at all ether way thats a pretty old video but still kind of cool.
  3. Gloomy dicks

    Jackyl seems to have a revenge property. When it is killed, it seems to return the attack for incredible damage. I don't know exactly how this works. But I'm pretty sure the case is that, monsters have terrible stats. And when Jackyl turns the attacks around and uses their attacks as revenge, he uses the Witch's stats to back it up. So he ends up hitting for a shit load.

    I've seen Bwanga kill himself with his own earthquake when he smashes Jackyl with it.
  4. Soltis Carried by Sandors

    I've seen this happen when he does that into flame furnace as well(from like 10hp bars), except you die too lol :<
  5. MasPan Shi-SHAW!

    Or it may be a combination of the following:
    1. Bwanga has immensely negative Fire Resistance
    2. Bwanga has a large weakness to counter attacks (similar to Lakius taking extra damage from critical hits)

    Incidentally, even after a flask "fades" it can still be ignited within a certain time window.
  6. Thuvian Member

    From my observations the oil splash remains visible for 12 seconds, during which it slows fades before disappearing. Once it disappears it would not catch on fire. I believe the discrepancy may be due to our monitor settings.
  7. Margatroid Extreme Fag (EXTREME!!)

    I do this very often. My main victim tends to be the death dragon, but since he's such a wuss at anyone standing right besides his face it tends to be pointless.
    I recorded this video the day I found out about this trick. So the video shows a bit of failure, but I've nailed it now. I enjoy running solos of Catacombs king for exp. The only hard room is the top one anyways.



    This trick is only practical against immobile or slow/large enemies, so unless you're up against a huge boss, its almost impossible to land the hit. In solo you'll definitely want to reserve this tactic for guys like Lotus, Death Dragon, Skasha, and maybe large/slow enemies like Ryku (and try to manteau them into it if possible).

    The best way to make this trick a little more practical in standard use is to befriend a brawler. They can add serious power to the pool with oil double throw (even without double throw in the build, they can always help out by throwing them). And with heaven's net, group all the enemy right into place. It requires some practice and timing, but me and my friend are pretty well sync'd so it works out greatly in dungeons.

    I'm not sure exactly how the damage calculation works, but I KNOW that Jackyl is absolutely required. I've tried this with my brawler but pure oil + simple bomb just doesn't cut it for damage. From what I've seen, Jackyl's damage is duplicated by the number of oils tossed. I could be completely wrong here since I haven't looked into it too much, but if Jackyl deals 8k, and I have 6 oils stacked, then I will see six 8k's appear. If anyone can confirm this for me that'd be great.

    Otherwise I could also just go test it myself. I wish Arena's Practice mode allowed throwing items but its disabled :<

    No, I don't think so. Unless there is counterattack calculations involved.
    The timed explosion damage doesn't seem to differ at all. Maybe you confused jackpot with regular?

    Jackyl's damage is a "shitload" because it is. I mean, look at the fixed damage it does. Its the highest single hit damage you can deal next to a jackpot gravitas.
  8. Margatroid Extreme Fag (EXTREME!!)

    Not fire related.
    It works with success jackly, and he's neutral damage.
  9. NuMbA Light's Out

    I can test it with ariel lantern bomb on my ele
  10. Gloomy dicks

    Not enough to kill Bwanga in one shot on Kings.
  11. conewicci I dun goofed.

    Possibly explosions AND fire damage that sets the oil off, not just fire type damage.
  12. Infection Cool story, bro

    I'm going to do it right now. Give me a bit of time.

    EDIT: Finished recording. It's 15 minutes long but you can skip a lot of it. I'm going to stitch them together, upload the compiled video on YouTube and repost.
  13. Margatroid Extreme Fag (EXTREME!!)

    I think I will participate myself as well. See what I get.

    Also, if Jackyl does indeed have reflective and amplification properties, it will be even more amazing than it already is.
    AND AS IF IT WASN'T ONE OF THE BEST SKILLS YOU COULD HAVE ALREADY :D
  14. Infection Cool story, bro

    Okayy!
    It's up, but still processing. Please give it some time.

  15. Margatroid Extreme Fag (EXTREME!!)

    Awesome job, though I thought all the talking was a bit unnecessary... :<
  16. Thuvian Member

    Infection - Can you give us a rundown of the equipment you had on and your stats? Thanks.
  17. saccharin That one crazy witch

    Holy shit, 30 SP/level for Shururu seems completely justified now.
  18. Infection Cool story, bro

  19. Margatroid Extreme Fag (EXTREME!!)

    Margatroid Int: 341
    Jackyl Level: 11
    Jackyl Success: 4253
    Jackyl Sleeper: 6379

    Success Damage 1: 10155
    Success Damage 2: 10156
    Success Damage 3: 10153

    Sleeper Damage 1: 15202
    Sleeper Damage 2: 15186
    Sleeper Damage 3: 15189


    Flame Grenade 1: 661
    Flame Grenade 2: 670

    Thunder Grenade 1: 908
    Thunder Grenade 2: 914

    Burn Damage: 900~1000 x Oils x Interval of 1 second

    I will not experiment with Thunder Grenades as the damage far too closely resembles burn damage thus making it easy to confuse between the two.

    When exploding under one oil and a Flame Grenade I see three numbers.
    1095, presumably the burn.
    269, which is green.
    And one number that is alawys covered by the green number, every test. I cannot move the oils or bomb in any way to show this number, but I have estimated it to be three digits ats well.

    Doesn't green numbers mean they're healing? But I've seen this often in my combos with my nen master as well, though it was squeezed in there once every often to assure me that it wasn't the light damage.
    Does green numbers mean something else?
    Edit: After hitting dendroids with water damage, I've decided that green does not necessarily mean it is healing. Healing also has a sound effect paired with a bubble animation, which was never seen during my nen's combos, nor did I see it on the light switch. But then what do green numbers stand for?

    Its safe to assume that the 269 was the oil's damage, and it covered the flame grenade's 6XX damage behind it. This is strange as Oil Explosion SHOULD deal 365 according to the description.

    Edit Edit: After making multiple attempts I've noticed that green numbers will not always appear, and also sometimes appears during burn. Its very interesting.

    After a bajillion attempts, the cleanest shot I've managed to get was this, using thunder grenades:

    [IMG]

    1082, Burn.
    917, Thunder Grenade
    259, Oil.

    After stacking oils I've noted that the burn and the oil explosions were multiplied in proportion to the number of oils thrown.

    Jackyl Success does NOT set off the trigger in an oil by itself.
    Jackyl Sleeper DOES set off the trigger in an oil by itself. Its effects are more or less identical to the other grenades, but with jackyl damage instead of grenade damage.
    PS: 45% Sleeper Rate with Lollipop and Max Friendly my ass. Took me 5 minutes of constant pulling to get Sleeper.

    After having spent about 100k's worth of bombs and oils I've decided its impossible to see the direct damage on these light switches because all the numbers stack, right behind the explosion itself. The target is too small.
    Using videos as a reference, going frame by frame, I've noted this.

    Insane Fire Witch 2 (Fire Build Must See!!)
    Vs Skasha
    1) 11 damage from bomb toss.
    2) 203 damage from bomb.
    3) Giant waves of burn and oil explosion, ranging from 2XX~4XX.
    4) Jackyl explodes, damage in 191XX.

    The peculiar part of Jackyl's explosion is that 191XX is stacked, proportionate to the number of oils tossed.

    Jackyl does not explode until after the oil explosion, meaning he is set off being killed in the oil explosion.

    So the only remaining question is, why is Jackyl's damage duplicated, and does he really have a revenge element to his damage? The light switch was a poor place to test this as you can't really see the damage nor could you really tell anything more than what we know.

    Jackyl's Damage to Cannon Commander's ship: 10248, 10247
    Jackyl's Damage to Cannon Commander's ship when killed by snowballs: 10306, 10237

    I don't believe there is a revenge factor. But am I using wrong targets? I thought Ryku was a pretty good place to test this.
  20. Thuvian Member

    That's some really interesting information. I'm trying to parse it, some of your descriptions are confusing me, but hopefully I can figure it out. If not, I may need you to clarify what some of your numbers mean. Also, you should run the tests on Normal Road. King's Road runs add an additional layer of mechanics to the issue.

    Things I finally sorted out.
    • Margatroid's Intelligence gives an extra 136% base damage. (236% total)
    • Jackyl Success & Jackyl Sleeper refer to the listed damage that Jackyl does before applying Intelligence. Given Margatroid's Intelligence, estimated damage from regular success Jackyl is 10167, for sleeper success 15193.
    • Success Damage 1-3 and Sleeper Damage 1-3 refer to observations of Jackyl exploding against a target. The target is most likely the switch. The observed damage is very close to the estimated damage.
    • Flame Grenade 1-2 and Thunder Grenade 1-2 refer to the initial explosion damage of the grenade.
    • Green Damage - I've also experienced the green damage. Typically with my Nenmaster as well. I'm not sure what it is, but likewise I'm pretty sure it isn't healing. The most frequent occurence is versus objects like the switch.
    • Oil Damage - If Oil burn is also effected by Intelligence, then you'd expect damage of 862 or 975. This seems to hold up. Strangely enough, my Nenmaster with Int 380 was only getting a burn damage of ~800.

    One thing I didn't see was any reference to the major Jackyl +Oil damage combination. Infection found this in his tests, and it was likewise found in the Skasa videos.

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